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AUG-25-10
18:56:25
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Forum: Serious Discussion for Christian Singles
RE: So, what did Eve really eat at the base of the tree
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AuroraLeigh
Female
31-40
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We have the famous beginning of PL: "Of man's first disobedience and the fruit/ Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste/ Brought death into our world and all our woe/With loss of Eden till one greater Man/Restore us and regain the blissful seat/Sing Heav'nly Muse . . . ."
Use of "fruit" over and over with only one use of "apple". More on this below:
According to Milton, not only did the pair eat, but they kept on eating: Eve "engorged without restraint" and "[Adam] scrupled not to eat,/Against his better knowledge, not deceived/But fondly overcome with female charm./Earth trembled from her entrails as again/In pangs and Nature gave a second groan./Sky loured and mutt'ring thunder some sad drops/Wept at completing of the mortal sin/Original while Adam took no thought,/Eating his fill" (IX. 997-1005).
(More on blaming "female charm" later).
One wonders about the steps involved in the action. At what point did Eve cross the line? Once she approached? Listened? Touched? Plucked? Is it possible that before she raised the fruit to her lips, she could have flung the wretched thing away and lived?
There is only one mention I could find of "apple" in PL, and that was in Book X: Satan is bragging to his minions: "Him by fraud I have seduced/From his Creator and the more t'increase/Your wonder, with an apple!" (485-87). "Apple" in 17th-century still referred mainly to the general sense of fruit. (I was told by a Pakistani friend that when the Brits were in India, they called every fruit they saw by "apple," usually as a compound with another word, like "pine." (Sidenote: The word "pineapple" originally referred to the reproductive organs of pine trees. So, "apple" could be used like "fruit" in a variety of ways.)
The main event of the Fall in Book IX shows the word "fruit" and variants.
OED, interestingly, contains a separate definition for the association of the apple with the story of the Fall. Earliest usage is C. 1225, probably in a scholar-monk's translation of the Genesis story, but referring to a general type of fruit. A text note says the Talmud refers to the fruit variously as fig, grape, or wheat. Here is an interesting excerpt from the online OED:
"Apples also appear in Early Christian art in catacombs and on sarcophagi in connection with Adam and Eve. The choice of the apple may have been influenced by the potential pun between classical Latin m lum apple and classical Latin malum evil, use as noun of neuter of malus bad, evil (see MAL- prefix). In the Old Testament apples are an erotic symbol in the Song of Solomon. There may also have been some association with apples as featured in Greek mythology; compare e.g. sense Phrases 3b.] " (I believe SeekingHeart has already discussed the relational possibilities between "malus" and the intentionality of usage of "apple.
Some Hebrew scholars indicate that apples are not native to the Middle East (which they believe is a likely location of Garden of Eden -- a subject I have been invested in for at least 5 years through Proto-IE language family studies). They pose that the fruit was likely citrus -- that "apples in gold" may be oranges.
"Tapuach" may derive from a base root that means "scented" (vomeronasal gland operating here as well as nasal?) Good joke at the end of this excerpt from "Balashon," relating to Adam's Apple:
A related concept to "tapuach" is "quince" deriving from French "coin" and used in texts like "Le Roman de la Rose" and in the Middle English translation (my source indicates even OE, but I cannot think that possible, given the French derivative, although it is possible that the A-S's, Danes, Jutes, others had a word for it, and it is likely that the Celts had one, given their original loci). The quince was said to be Venus' sacred fruit. Quinces were tokens of love presented at weddings throughout classical times and the Middle Ages, although they do not seem pleasant to eat, being "hairy" on the outside.
If we look at the word fruit etymologically, we find an OE cognate -- brucan (to enjoy, from which we also get "brook.") Many interesting possible applications here (i.e, pleasure and the fruit; or pleasure of procreation, pleasure and the Fall/sin, etc.)
The most fascinating thing about the word "apple" to me is that it can be used as a verb: "To apple" has a meaning similar to "to flower." If turnips are appling, they are doing well and growing rounder. A humorous example is used in OED found in a 1948 study by Carbery and E Grey Herts, Heritage, Vol. 57: "Me taters be n't applin' like they ed ough'ter." You can go appling by collecting fir cones (used for kindling mainly).
Have my eye out for "Apple of my eye" post.
Though EBB has much to say about the story of the fall, I have yet to find her use of "apple." Even in her epic, "The Drama of Exile," (longer than PL) where we find Adam and Eve outside the garden, confronting their new life in the wilderness, I have not seen a referent to "apple," not even in Satan's discourse. There are many creation/nature poems in the oeuvre, so it may be there, somewhere. Also, could not locate the term in the women's lit on the creation story before Milton, though that doesn't mean it isn't there, so more "applin'" to do. (New use of "to apple": to search for literary or etymological references to "apple.") :)
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AUG-25-10
16:13:46
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Forum: Prayer Requests and Answers
RE: Thanks and prayer to God about a job opportunity
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PATZ
Male
41-50
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Praise the Lord! May you be used by Him to be a light and a blessing for however long He has you there!
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AUG-25-10
10:10:59
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Forum: Prayer Requests and Answers
Thanks and prayer to God about a job opportunity
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Markus80s
Male
41-50
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I finally got a job opportunity after months of not working. It is a 6 month term position as an inbound customer service representative.
Please give thanks to God for this opportunity and please pray that God will bless my job performance so that employer will be pleased with me. Also, please pray that this may lead to a permanent position.
Thanks and God bless!
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AUG-25-10
5:19:1
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Forum: Serious Discussion for Christian Singles
RE: Why old men choose younger women?
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Orlando4Christ
Male
31-40
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Auroraleigh's piece is worth reading especially by the female folks.Even as a man I enjoyed reading it.The insights there are invaluable.I have always believed that age difference is not the most important factor in choosimg a life partner.To me,compatibilty is the key ingredient for a sucessful marriage.Cases abound of spouses who are more or less of the same age that ended up divorcing.The case of Al Gore is fresh in memory.On the other hand,there are couples whose age differences are wide ,but still,their marriages stood the test of time;weathering all storms.
The age difference is more of an issue in the west than other parts of the world.And the high divorce rate in tne west,much more than elsewhere,is a prima facie that age difference is more or less immaterial in having a lasting marriage.Be it as it may,it could be somehow embarassing if someone's spouse is old enough to be their parent.But who cares if the parties involved have no qualms with that, like the example Auroraleigh gave.All said and done,we should be led by God, rather than our emotions,in our choice of life partners.Our prayer should be "Oh God if this is the man(or woman) who is my bone,let it be."
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AUG-24-10
17:4:37
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Forum: Christian Singles Comments on this Site
CONTACT INFO ON PROFILES
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mainegal
Female
51-60
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What is up lately with so many non paying members posting their email address on the front page of their profile? What a good way to get loads of SPAM and SCAMMERS!! On this site it is CLEAR.... contact info is shared through certain PAID memberships. I know it is unlikely that those that try to squeeze their contact info on their profile will never read or care about the forum board, but perhaps those that read this will click onto their profile, scrool to the bottom, click on---> REPORT THIS PROFILE, put a note "contact info on profile" and send it off to the great folks that run this site! I am sometimes torn between leaving it there or reporting it as if it is left there perhaps they will get the well deserved SPAM!!! =)
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